[wplug-jobs] Help us young bucks out

[Ted Rodgers]

John,

My reply to your original post was sent to wplug-jobs.  Your response
was not list posted, but mailed directly to me.  Be careful when you
hit "reply."

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 12:42 AM, John Lewis <oflameo2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ted,
>
>
> On 09/06/2012 10:56 PM, Ted Rodgers wrote:
>> Good topic, although the jobs list is usually for job postings, that
>> is employers seeking candidates.  Perhaps a good thread for the
>> general list would be a discussion about job networking in the
>> opensource community.
>
> First of all, the rules specifically say that this board is not just for job
> postings but also "Those who want to discuss business and career strategies
> for obtaining Linux, Unix, and Open Source work (ft, pt, intern, or
> contract) in the Western PA area." That is what we are doing right now. If
> you think the rules need to be revised I advise you to post that motion to
> the general list or wplug plan.
>
Looking at the history of the list, it's mostly employers or
recruiters who post to it and it gets fewer posting per month than the
general list.  That is why I suggested starting a discussion on the
general list:  it may receive more input for list members.

>
> On 09/06/2012 10:56 PM, Ted Rodgers wrote:
>> Be careful when making comments like the above because in many circles
>> it will burn your bridges before you even get to them. While your
>> point may be somewhat valid, the focus of your statement is very
>> negative.  First, you are laying down your hand and saying "look what
>> I don't have" rather than saying "I can offer this" or "these are the
>> skills I've learned or am working on."  This sets you up for being
>> shot down because you created a hole and immediately have to dig
>> yourself out of it.
>
> I am not too worried about burning bridges right now because I seem to have
> no bridges that I am able to cross in the first place. I am not giving a
> sales pitch I am trying to show you what I have to work with. The fact is
> that I couldn't have got experience on those machines because I did not get
> the opportunity to exist yet.
>
>
Job search somewhat is a sales pitch in that you present your skills
in some manner to those who have the means to pay for your using them.
 True, for IT/tech professionals it may not be the same as other
fields, but it is what it is.  Any manager or hiring team who tries to
"impress" or belittle you by rattling off 10000 obscure versions of
hardware or operating systems or anything else is likely one not worth
working for.  Good managers don't do that and while some bad managers
don't either, it's one less potential headache you'd be enduring at
work.  Imagine if your boss did that.  I've been there, I've had it
happen, and I didn't like it.  The result was that on day three of the
job I was speaking to another firm.  Asking if you know or have
experience with $arcane.thing is fine, chucking every keyword or piece
of jargon possible across the table/room at a candidate or employee is
bad practice.

I'm on your side here, well your side is one side I'm on for now.
Change the way your view things.  Take it in, spin it positive in your
mind if you need to, just don't assimilate what you are guessing
others are saying or thinking about you because the key word is
"guessing."  If they say it aloud to you, it's either blatant honesty
or rudeness depending on how it's said.  If it's honestly, then it's
showing their lack of verbal skill, and if it's done rudely, well it
shows they are rude.  Would you want to go forward with a boss who is
rude?

> On 09/06/2012 10:56 PM, Ted Rodgers wrote:
>> Second, while you may not realize it, you are stereotyping both
>> yourself and "them."  You're talking to a mixed membership list here
>> and innumerable others who may read the list online via archives for
>> literally years to come.  Many of us may not have used the original
>> UNIX, but we were around when it was young and heavily used.  Any
>> senior manager who may want to interview you is also going to be able
>> to recall the era when System V was brand new, too.  Be careful where
>> you imply the word "dated" or "obsolete" because LISP is may be
>> lurking in places you wouldn't expect.
>
> I did not imply that System V UNIX or Lisp machines were obsolete. In fact I
> did the opposite in mentioning them because they are very relevant to the
> heritage of free and open source software. Lisp is lurking on all of my x86
> machines because I installed GNU Clisp myself for I can do the Land of Lisp
> exercises.
>
Good job.  Use your willingness to do things like that as an example
of self motivation and willingness to learn.  It's another portion of
filling in gaps or presenting your experience:  you're doing the
exercises although you didn't witness the LISP birth.  It's hard to
read tone from mailing list posts, so I may have misread yours; if you
heard slant on mine, it was not implied.  My point about emphasizing
your skills and what sets you apart from other candidates is valid
because keeping the focus and view positive is important.

>
> On 09/06/2012 10:56 PM, Ted Rodgers wrote:
>> Without knowing you, it's difficult to make more than general
>> suggestions, but I'll offer you a couple.  Develop your skill set to
>> lessen the gaps in your skills.  Since you were in a technical
>> program, I'll assume you focused on system administration; having been
>> in the program you are sure to have found areas that you either liked
>> or that you feel weren't covered well.  Research those areas and use
>> skills from them ... use them a lot.   Learn the facets of those areas
>> well and get under the hood  so that you learn to use and tweak them
>> and to break them too --if you never break the pieces, you'll never
>> master fixing them.  Remember that while your program may offer you
>> certification or a degree, it's real purpose is as a tool to help you
>> develop your career: it's a starting point or check point, not the
>> finish line.
>
> It is hard to not know me unless you aren't on WPLUG's general mailing list
> or go to WPLUG's events.

I read the mailing list often, and I moderate this one.  I was
offering advice that I felt would be helpful, despite not knowing you.

>
>
> On 09/06/2012 10:56 PM, Ted Rodgers wrote:
>> WPLUG is not a job agency.  The group can be somewhat seen as a lab with
>> members who choose to be a part.  Experiment some and find out what
>> can come from your being a part of a group where everyone gives
>> because it's something they like and not because it's an obligation.
>> And, if you do share information or start a project, the website can
>> host a writeup, video, or discussions about your presentation or
>> project. Those can help get your name out there and build credentials
>> that the average courses cannot.
>
> I did not think WPLUG was a job agency. I probably would not have joined if
> I thought it was. I did think it was a professional organization. I did not
> beg for a job, I just used the used the job mailing list as the rules
> dictated. This isn't my first time on the mailing list. I have been
> affiliated with WPLUG for two years. I have uploaded a presentation I wrote
> on iproute2 that I gave a talk on earlier in the year and released in under
> a creative common share alike license, and I am thinking about doing a talk
> on netcat.
>
>
You did not use the mailing list incorrectly for your post.  If you
did those things already (which I will not verify), you have already
been doing what WPLUG can do to help get your name scraped by web
crawler bots and perhaps you did or will gain some networking from
your efforts.   Makes me ponder the point of "what can I still do and
how can WPLUG assist me in getting a job."  That is self-rhetorical,
no response needed.

> On 09/06/2012 10:56 PM, Ted Rodgers wrote:
>> While many career connections have
>> been made through WPLUG, it must be remembered that expecting the
>> group to find you a job would be unreasonable and outside the scope of
>> the organization's mission statement or purpose; but, I think you'll
>> find that WPLUG or its members would not be opposed to you having a
>> job and would not be offended if in some small way it happened that
>> your being a part somehow led to your gainful employment.
>
> Can you please clarify what you mean by this sentence?
>
WPLUG has ties to many people and places.  By actively participating
with WPLUG there are chance meet ups with people that can lead to
projects or other chance meetups --ones that may otherwise not occur.
Career advancement may not be the goal of the group, yet it certainly
is not forbidden for any activity, meeting, or presentation to lead to
a job.  That is, yes, it may be possible to find or create a job
because you engage in a WPLUG activity, although there is no
guarantee. Clear enough?

>
> Why didn't you post this to the list where future members could benefit from
> this discussion?
>
If you bring up the list archives, you will find that my response was
to wplug-jobs.  As said above, however, your response was direct to
me.  Unless a direct response is requested, please reply to the
mailing list.  If you want to go off-list, a "can we discuss this
off-list" email is acceptable, but the request should not contain
discussion.

Ted