(08:02:23 PM) bethlynn: Welcome to the IRC meeting for the candidates who are running for the board of western pa linux user group (08:02:44 PM) curlynoodle: Sorry, if you did not recognize my handle, Dave Kraus here. (08:02:58 PM) bethlynn: I am your moderator, Beth Lynn Eicher (08:03:07 PM) bethlynn: bethlynneicher@gmail.com (08:03:09 PM) mujo: Mathieu Dube, here (08:04:20 PM) happylemur [n=vance@dialup-4.155.120.81.Dial1.Baltimore1.Level3.net] entered the room. (08:04:21 PM) bethlynn: What I want you all to do is state your real name, your role in tonight's meeting (candidate, member, lurking) (08:04:50 PM) mujo: Mathieu Dube, candidate. (08:04:57 PM) ***happylemur is Vance Kochenderfer and I am a candidate. (08:05:09 PM) bethlynn: candidates should also give their email address in case anyone has any questions for you after the IRC meeting (08:05:09 PM) curlynoodle: Dave Kraus: candidate for WPLUG board 2009, current board member. (08:05:24 PM) happylemur: I spoke with mhs (Mike Semcheski) on the phone and he will not be able to make it. (08:05:37 PM) curlynoodle: mail me @ wplug@curlynoodle.com (08:05:44 PM) wmoran [n=wmoran@pool-72-95-226-5.pitbpa.ftas.verizon.net] entered the room. (08:05:55 PM) eksortso: I'm David Ostroske, member, NON-candidate, but interested party. eksortso@gmail.com (08:06:28 PM) wmoran: Everybody here? (08:06:34 PM) rcturley_ [n=rcturley@pool-72-77-116-6.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] entered the room. (08:06:38 PM) ***wm_eddie is Eduardo Gonzalez, and I'm jusr lurking :-) (08:06:42 PM) happylemur: Howdy Bill. (08:06:46 PM) wm_eddie: just too (08:06:59 PM) bethlynn: did anyone here from Bob Turley? (08:07:04 PM) rcturley_: I'm here (08:07:10 PM) bethlynn: oh, ok (08:07:24 PM) rcturley_: I just signed on (08:07:29 PM) wmoran: Hey (08:07:43 PM) bethlynn: What I want you all to do is state your real name, your role in tonight's meeting (candidate, member, lurking). candidates should also give their email address in case anyone has any questions for you after the IRC meeting (08:07:59 PM) mujo: my email address is mujo@dubix.org (08:08:13 PM) wmoran: I'm Bill Moran, apparently a candidate. wmoran@potentialtech.com (08:08:20 PM) happylemur: I'm vance@happylemur.com (08:08:33 PM) rcturley_: Bob Turley, write in candidate, rcturley@verizon.net (08:08:57 PM) ***bethlynn pokes lavalamp (08:09:09 PM) wmoran: Damnit Seklecki (08:09:28 PM) bethlynn: Is Mr. Brian Seklecki present? (08:10:36 PM) bethlynn: I guess not. Vance, did you call him? (08:10:49 PM) happylemur: No, I just called Mike. (08:11:08 PM) bethlynn: ok. I'll call Brian, give me a sec (08:11:31 PM) happylemur: FYI, anyone who wants some background can read the candidate statements at . (08:11:50 PM) happylemur: Candidates who have not yet added their statement to this page are invited to do so. (08:12:37 PM) wmoran: So, for people not a candidate, what do you want out of WPLUG in 2009? (08:13:14 PM) lavalamp: bl: just called me? I'm still @ office (08:13:22 PM) wmoran: For that matter, even if you are a candidate ... (08:13:28 PM) bethlynn: Yes (08:13:40 PM) lavalamp: sorry (08:13:43 PM) lavalamp: i'm here (08:13:58 PM) curlynoodle: Welcome (08:14:00 PM) bethlynn: lavalamp: the IRC meeting to meet the board candidates is now (08:14:02 PM) eksortso: I'd like a more steady meeting schedule. We've lost a lot of attendees by not sticking to first/second Saturdays. (08:14:08 PM) bethlynn: What I want you all to do is state your real name, your role in tonight's meeting (candidate, member, lurking). candidates should also give their email address in case anyone has any questions for you after the IRC meeting (08:14:09 PM) monkeybot: i already had it that way, bethlynn. (08:14:38 PM) eksortso: monkeybot, shut up for 60 minutes. (08:14:38 PM) monkeybot: eksortso: pardon moi? (08:14:46 PM) wmoran: Shut up monkeybot, you're not a candidate (08:15:04 PM) bethlynn: ok. Since we can account for everyone who is running we'll just begin (08:16:23 PM) bethlynn: I'm not running so I will answer candidate Bill Moran's question (08:16:46 PM) happylemur: eksortso makes a good point, although I think that having good speakers/topics will attract people. (08:17:00 PM) happylemur: They do need to be announced well in advance, though. (08:17:22 PM) curlynoodle: Agreed, meetings and Installfests are all about the content. (08:17:35 PM) mujo: can you define "good" topics? (08:17:54 PM) bethlynn: I want WPLUG to be a presence in the Pittsburgh area by continuing the table topics meetings which give neighborhoods other than Oakland a chance. I also would like us to start a project for the good of the public. (08:18:52 PM) mujo: I mean should they be geared towards new users(like howtos) or about new things? (08:19:03 PM) bethlynn: to eksortso's point of regular meetings, Erielug has made a pledge to meet every 1st Sat (08:19:08 PM) rcturley_: I'm looking to see if we (wplug) can find a way to more effectively communicate to others that there are other alternatives to the 'traditional' computing model. The existance and viability of the open source model is not sufficiently well known to the general public. (08:19:15 PM) happylemur: mujo: topics of broad interest (to all skill levels) seem to be the most popular, if they're on an interesting subject. MythTV is one that comes to mind. (08:19:21 PM) curlynoodle: Table topics seem well received. Again, participation is proportional to quality of content. (08:20:26 PM) eksortso: bethlynn, table topics around the neighborhoods is good, and have been good. (08:20:48 PM) happylemur: bethlynn: I think the only thing stopping us from having a consistent schedule is getting a venue. (08:21:03 PM) curlynoodle: I firmly believe WPLUG needs to strive to become a resource for ALL users, with a focus on professional. (08:21:10 PM) bethlynn: happylemur: as the events chair, I concur (08:22:22 PM) happylemur: rcturley_: we have taken baby steps in that direction with Software Freedom Day. (08:22:25 PM) mujo: how could we reach more professionals? Thru other tech groups? The pittsburgh tech council meeting seemed more business than tech (08:22:40 PM) wmoran: What does the board need to do? (08:23:31 PM) wm_eddie: Add buzzwords to all meeting communications? (08:23:40 PM) rcturley_: Do we want to limit ourselves to the university community, or (for instance) do we want to also consider inviting high school technology teachers to learn about the open source model's viability at a saturday teach-in? (08:24:28 PM) curlynoodle: wmoran: the Board needs to identify tasks, assign those tasks, and manage the result. Easily said, I know. (08:24:46 PM) rcturley_: In order to do a teach-in, we would need to spread the word about it to the educational community. (08:25:17 PM) wm_eddie: Perhaps make a video demoing edubuntu? (08:25:38 PM) eksortso: what do teachers need? (08:25:44 PM) lavalamp: demoing forking in general (08:26:58 PM) eksortso: I'm assuming lavalamp is Brian Seklecki, write-in candidate? (08:27:09 PM) lavalamp: yea, i owe someone $20 (08:27:21 PM) lavalamp: but i'm just watching tonight (08:27:36 PM) mujo: what if we established a 4-6 months schedule for our talks (08:27:48 PM) mujo: then create a poster and post it in universities (08:27:56 PM) mujo: do you think that would bring more attendance? (08:28:01 PM) wmoran: Yes (08:28:02 PM) rcturley_: Perhaps the teachers need to understand about the viability of this approach, and also how to get materials that they can use for teaching their students (and thus becoming open source evangelists) (08:28:27 PM) wmoran: Every time we've done "marketing" of any time it has boosted attendance and brought new members (08:28:41 PM) lavalamp: sorry (08:28:43 PM) lavalamp: errms (08:28:54 PM) mujo: I'd like to hear from current board members about the feasability of planning talks months in advance (08:29:31 PM) mujo: I mean, are there too much cancelations by speakers? (08:29:48 PM) wmoran: venue? (08:29:54 PM) happylemur: mujo: currently we are somewhat limited by our relationship to CMU. (08:30:10 PM) mujo: ok (08:30:10 PM) rcturley_: If we had a longer term meeting/topic schedule there are other places that we can communicate the schedules without cost. (08:30:12 PM) curlynoodle: mujo: the 2008 board scheduled most presentations in advance. (08:30:18 PM) bethlynn: yes we could use a college contact for all of the higher learning institutions (08:30:54 PM) curlynoodle: However, venue availability, speaker cancellation and other factors play a factor. (08:31:00 PM) happylemur: Being able to secure a venue and speaker months in advance would help greatly. (08:31:12 PM) curlynoodle: Oops, I'm not paying attention. (08:31:17 PM) happylemur: This was the case back when I first started coming to WPLUG. (08:31:24 PM) bethlynn: Yes we do need volunteers, including non board members who follow thru (08:31:30 PM) wm_eddie: (http://pittgeeks.org/ is a good place to find a college contact for Pitt.) (08:32:17 PM) curlynoodle: wm_eddie: I spoke with PittGeeks in 2007. They seemed interested, but then never heard from them again. We can always try again. (08:32:51 PM) ***eksortso does not deserve to live, having skipped out on too many projects (08:33:07 PM) curlynoodle: K? (08:33:07 PM) monkeybot: K is for Kompressor! (08:33:30 PM) rcturley_: Have we investigated communicating our existance/resources via the high tech council? (08:33:58 PM) FxChiP|BackLater: Kompressor does not dance (08:34:00 PM) FxChiP|BackLater is now known as FxChiP (08:34:25 PM) curlynoodle: We are listed with pghtech.org, they have offered their venue for a few meetings, but cannot be on weekends. (08:34:39 PM) happylemur: rcturley_: yes, about two years ago we met at PTC with some of the other user groups. (08:35:13 PM) happylemur: The plans did not get very far, although there is a mailing list set up for communication among group leaders. (08:35:25 PM) happylemur: We could be more active in promoting our events through that. (08:37:08 PM) bethlynn: I have a question for mujo (08:37:13 PM) mujo: go ahead (08:37:34 PM) eksortso: I can say that every time I showed up at a PTC meeting, I handed out cards and generated some interest in WPLUG. Nothing too broad-scale. (08:38:50 PM) mujo: bethlynn? (08:38:51 PM) monkeybot: bethlynn is a groovy dancer (08:38:54 PM) bethlynn: You moved here recently. Is this the first Linux User Group you have joined? If so, say something about what we do well and what they do well. If not, explain what attracted you to lugs in the first place. (08:39:20 PM) mujo: I havent been a member of other lugs (08:40:17 PM) Nockian: who are you guys voting for in the 2008 Presidential election? (08:40:29 PM) curlynoodle: Perot (08:40:47 PM) curlynoodle: oh, wrong decade (08:40:48 PM) mujo: well, the interest I have with wplug is that the opensource community is way broader than it used to be (08:41:14 PM) mujo: so I like to hear from other people that have other areas of knowledge in the opensource (08:41:43 PM) FxChiP: Obama, likely... (08:42:01 PM) loko: what election? (08:42:04 PM) mujo: I like technical talks but other more user-oriented topics interest me as well (08:42:36 PM) eksortso: I use FOSS at work all of the time, even though they don't like software from outside MS very much. (08:43:04 PM) eksortso: I use Linux at home exclusively, though. (08:43:23 PM) mujo: I use to have a CTO that wanted to ban all OSS from the IT dept for "security reasons" (08:43:53 PM) curlynoodle: mujo: can you say which company? (08:43:55 PM) mujo: there was a small (verbal) revolt and he forgot it (08:43:56 PM) mujo: yes (08:44:00 PM) mujo: paysystems.com (08:44:01 PM) happylemur: We have had less tech-heavy presentations that were well attended. (08:44:01 PM) bethlynn: folks, can we focus on the WPLUG board of directors election this Saturday on Oct 4? (08:44:09 PM) mujo: I think they went under (08:44:22 PM) mujo: it was just coz the main sysadmin only knew how to secure NT (08:44:35 PM) happylemur: The "demo day" for new users was one of those. (08:44:45 PM) curlynoodle: Does anyone have a question for me? (08:44:49 PM) mujo: so the sysadmin just put the developer's desktop computers on another segment (08:44:55 PM) mujo: which he should have done anyways (08:45:03 PM) curlynoodle: WPLUG election related question... (08:45:08 PM) happylemur: It depends on finding people willing to speak on a less-technical subject. (08:45:08 PM) bethlynn: mujo: this sounds pretty familiar to me (08:45:10 PM) eksortso: i have... (08:45:29 PM) curlynoodle: go 4 it (08:46:10 PM) mujo: curlynoodle, since you know the board positions already, which one would you like to have if youre elected? (08:46:13 PM) mujo: and why? (08:46:17 PM) eksortso: how could the Board spur on volunteer effort? rcturley_ has brought up some things. How can we get him in contact with other people wanting to work with schools? (08:46:45 PM) eksortso: and, how could you do that in general? (08:46:54 PM) curlynoodle: I have enjoyed being Treasurer as it requires an amount of organization. (08:48:07 PM) mujo: eksortso: you mean bring in more attendees or have current members do more volunteer? (08:48:36 PM) eksortso: have current anyone-involved-in-WPLUG do more volunteer work. for instance... (08:48:53 PM) curlynoodle: I would also consider Secretary. (08:49:02 PM) eksortso: i don't have time for Bob's project but i think it's good. Surely someone else can help... (08:49:03 PM) rcturley_: We need to define what we want out mission to be. Only then can we be effective in outreach. (08:49:26 PM) eksortso: how can we get them together? how can we help them lay out their strategy? (08:51:05 PM) mujo: I think we should come up with concrete proposals (08:51:17 PM) rcturley_: In considering our mission, we need to look both what we want to do for our current membership, and what group do we want to target for exposure to our computing approaches. (08:51:24 PM) mujo: then discuss them with the members and sign them up (08:52:01 PM) mujo: its hard to come up with strategies in large groups from a blank sheet (08:52:28 PM) happylemur: As a wholly volunteer organization, we don't have the ability to order people onto a particular task. (08:52:39 PM) mujo: thats not what I meant (08:52:47 PM) mujo: I said proposals (08:53:13 PM) mujo: what Id want to avoid is a discussion on an outreach strategy without any starting point (08:53:30 PM) mujo: it would go in all directions I fear (08:53:49 PM) rcturley_: mujo: agreed. most people are not creative thinkers. I've found that giving a starting point (even if the discussion totally changes it) is more effective. (08:53:50 PM) eksortso: or no directions. (08:54:17 PM) bethlynn: I can make things simple for people. Last saturday I started a dialog with Goodwill Computers - the southside store. (08:54:34 PM) bethlynn: they sell used computers with Linux preinstalled (08:54:50 PM) mujo: of course, we'd have to make sure that most members think that outreaching is a relevant task for the group (08:54:52 PM) curlynoodle: Again with the question, what do the WPLUG members (and other participants) want from WPLUG? What can we (the board) do to make the organization valuable and motivate attendance and active participation? (08:55:29 PM) bethlynn: but they seem to be backloged with inventory that needs work before I can be on the showfloor. Would a workday be a worthy project? Who would participate? (08:56:00 PM) curlynoodle: bethlynn: I am willing to help at an upcoming Installfest. (08:56:15 PM) Nockian: curlynoodle: get WPLUG members to attend Geek Night to make other geeks aware of it - http://www.pghgeeks.org (08:56:21 PM) rcturley_: bethlynn: I'd be willing to do such a workday (08:56:54 PM) mujo: do you think that attendance will increase by bringing in new members or find more new participants? (08:57:17 PM) mujo: sorry (08:57:29 PM) mujo: bringing in current members or find new ones (08:57:43 PM) eksortso: I'm willing to help admin the mailing lists, like I used to do. (08:58:04 PM) bethlynn: I think the key to "doing something for the community" is to work with an existing non-profit who is already interested in Linux. Let's harvest the low hanging fruit. (08:58:39 PM) FxChiP: bethlynn, they're still doing that? :D (08:58:58 PM) happylemur: mujo: perhaps, but there's no guarantee. I don't believe the demo day I mentioned earlier netted us any new regular attendees. (08:59:02 PM) Nockian: i think that you have to find common interests aside from just 'Linux' to get people more actively involved. i mean, lots of people use and promote Linux, so why would they go to an event to install it? it seems that part of learning Linux is doing it on your own, so the events should be more specific. (08:59:16 PM) happylemur: That doesn't mean it was a bad idea, just that it didn't necessarily grow WPLUG. (08:59:19 PM) rcturley_: bethlynn: If we would help Goodwill, would they be willing to publicize our help to their customers? (08:59:48 PM) FxChiP: they'd probably have to talk to their PR guys (08:59:55 PM) FxChiP: But they would be for it, other than that, I would think (08:59:59 PM) bethlynn: FxChip, yeah I talked to one of your former coworkers. Bob. he's seriously swamped (09:00:14 PM) FxChiP: He tends to be. :( (09:00:29 PM) FxChiP: Last I heard they hired some new guys too (09:00:43 PM) bethlynn: He's doing excellent work but he's only one person (09:01:19 PM) Nockian: if you really want to try to get Linux into corporations, you need to show them a migration path that would save them money. like do a WPLUG event that showed how you could go from MS SQL / Oracle to MySQL / PostgreSQL with minimum resource investments. point out the tools you could use, and the $ you'd save on OS licensing and database licensing. (09:02:17 PM) eksortso: growing WPLUG isn't as important as advancing Linux and open source, wouldn't you say? (09:02:26 PM) mujo: the problem you face with that is that a company that works with MSSQL has engineers that are familiar with it (09:02:35 PM) eksortso: i mean, the latter helps the former (09:02:38 PM) curlynoodle: Nockian: as I said before, I believe growing commercial and professional interest will help our group. (09:02:57 PM) mujo: and if you convince the suits about the money saving, you still have opposition from the engineers (09:03:10 PM) Nockian: eksortso: WPLUG is the vehicle for advancing Linux and open source locally (09:03:14 PM) curlynoodle: eksortso: growing our organization helps advance FOSS. (09:03:20 PM) bethlynn: for the non-incumbent canidates, what leadership experience do you bring? (09:03:46 PM) mujo: Ive worked in community newspapers (09:03:46 PM) happylemur: Do we have people who can give a credible presentation on migrating business systems to open source software? (09:04:14 PM) mujo: Ive also co-administered a community server, with mailing lists and webmails mainly (09:04:39 PM) rcturley_: i've been on the boards of other non-profits, and worked with them in organizational development for several years. (09:04:52 PM) bethlynn: mpop once gave a presentation about moving nonprofits to floss (09:05:03 PM) Nockian: mujo: there's an old saying, "shit rolls downhill". it's "the suits" who run the business, and aren't going to be stopped by some gear heads when they can save money. the engineers could be replaced with open source engineers, thus creating new open source jobs. (09:05:56 PM) curlynoodle: My leadership experience is limited to WPLUG, and project management at my job. (09:06:07 PM) eksortso: Nockian, but how can WPLUG help with that? (09:06:42 PM) curlynoodle: Oh, and I led my programming group in college. Lame, but it was a leadership role. (09:06:52 PM) mujo: nockian, I meant that we'll have a problem of credibility, as they'll trust their engineers (09:06:57 PM) Nockian: eksortso: by sponsoring events that target local corporations that use Microsoft products like MS SQL that could easily be replaced with MySQL/PostgreSQL. (09:07:21 PM) Nockian: the Pittsburgh Technology Council does it all the time, maybe partner with them to advertise/organize it (09:07:53 PM) mujo: I tried to do it from inside a job I had and it was hard to get anything on OSS, so Im not saying its impossible but I doubt we could easily do that (09:08:23 PM) Nockian: mujo: yes, but with a credible organization like WPLUG presenting it, the effect would be different than a single guy trying to push for it in a company (09:08:38 PM) mujo: its not just MSSQL, they usually have custom frontends coded in MS technologies (09:09:02 PM) eksortso: curlynoodle, that isn't lame at all! (09:09:07 PM) curlynoodle: Last call for questions. (09:09:08 PM) mujo: asp, C# or whatever, you have a lot migration involved in that (09:09:16 PM) loko: Nockian I have a customer in Pittsburgh who choose to use MS SQL and Windows which cost $18K in licensing vs Solaris and Postgres which was free. To them "easily replaced" as you put it, costs more than $18K to manage (09:09:29 PM) mujo: curlynoodle: where does that nick come from? (09:09:40 PM) Nockian: mujo: again, another perfect time to migrate to an open source web frontend :) (09:09:57 PM) eksortso: i've got another question, but I'll wait (09:10:10 PM) mujo: nockian: its costly(in programmer's pay) to code from asp to php (09:10:25 PM) mujo: even more to go from a C# gui to Qt (09:10:57 PM) happylemur: curlynoodle: following up on bethlynn's idea, are there any other organizations you think WPLUG should try to partner with? (09:11:06 PM) Nockian: loko: yes, there are many factors to consider, including development resources (programmers)... but it may well be worth it in the long run if you see when your return on investment is. the alternative is to continue to pay/raise current programmers and continue to pay licensing fees as well. (09:11:11 PM) mujo: Im just saying every company's infrastructure should be looked at before making the claim to them that they could save a lot by migrating (09:11:17 PM) curlynoodle: I wanted a .com domain. Couldn't find something I liked. My wife said "curlynoodle". It was available! A cross between graymatter and ramen (09:11:41 PM) Nockian: wow, is there anyone else in here who would push open source? :) (09:12:05 PM) mujo: Im all for pushing opensource (09:12:14 PM) loko: Nockian I push it... however, I am not like everyone else in here who is completely anti-MS =) (09:13:29 PM) happylemur: Nockian: I have my parents using it for >6 years now. I am not in IT nor have any pull with IT at work so have no opportunity to push there. (09:13:46 PM) curlynoodle: One off the top of my head: Western PA VMware LUG, (09:13:52 PM) bethlynn: We've talked about organizing a large-scale event with lots of exposure. What do the candidates think would be more worthwhile if you had to choose. A. Put more effort into the events we already have or B. decrease effort on regular event to focus more on a larger event (09:14:12 PM) rcturley_: loko: I don't think that I would call me "anti-MS". I believe that there is room for both it and the open source approach in the marketplace. (09:14:32 PM) mujo: a general presentation about replacing MSSQL with postgresql(mysql has weird licensing if you distribute it) is great but doing consulting with specific companies is imo beyond our capacity (09:15:10 PM) curlynoodle: bethlynn: regional event. (09:15:40 PM) curlynoodle: Perhaps organized in collaboration with ErieLUG (09:15:45 PM) mujo: couldnt we generate more exposures for our (already there) events? (09:15:53 PM) bethlynn: My question was for all canidates (09:16:02 PM) rcturley_: For a larger event, we might have to identify and partner with organizations that provide value added services to open source customers (09:16:41 PM) curlynoodle: I am off folks. Thanks for all the ideas. See you on Saturday. (09:16:51 PM) mujo: see you dave. (09:16:54 PM) happylemur: bethlynn: if it's an either-or choice, I think I have to go with A. Given the diversity of interests within WPLUG, I think sacrificing regular events for One Big Event may drive some members away. (09:16:59 PM) happylemur: Later Dave. (09:17:08 PM) eksortso: see ya Dave (09:17:12 PM) curlynoodle left the room. (09:17:14 PM) rcturley_: bethlynn:It depends upon the mission of the organization: do we want to be internally or externally focused. (09:17:30 PM) mujo: I think we could develop locally a little more too (09:17:49 PM) mujo: a big event would draw people from outside the region (09:17:59 PM) mujo: but would necessarly develop the group locally (09:18:47 PM) rcturley_: yes, but a big event would take a year or more advance notice and effort. We may not have sufficient resources to do that at present. (09:19:48 PM) Nockian: you could get companies like MySQL to donate/co-sponsor a large event. i'm sure you could get a lot of interest in the local IT community with an event that focused on migrating and saved money. maybe let mysql give their dog and pony show, and then WPLUG do something with Linux Heartbeat. (09:20:17 PM) mujo: Im not sure we couldnt do it, I just dont think we'd be a bigger organization the day after that big event (09:20:36 PM) bethlynn: MySQL has declined to sponsor the Ohio Linuxfest when their pr director is in Columbus (09:20:40 PM) happylemur: As an example, I seem to recall rblackwe saying that the Pittsburgh Perl Workshop hasn't grown the Pgh Perl Mongers. (09:20:56 PM) bethlynn: it's hard to say which companies will "get it" (09:21:37 PM) Nockian: the Ohio Linuxfest isn't the same as a single event looking to specifically migrate people to Linux and MySQL, from other technologies. i'd imagine that MySQL saw the Ohio Linuxfest as something that linux gearheads would attend. (09:22:02 PM) bethlynn: well, this goes to purpose (09:22:25 PM) bethlynn: there has been discussions if we want to formalize as a non-profit (09:23:06 PM) bethlynn: 501c3 is a good way to go if you want to be educational but you can't lobby the government (09:23:11 PM) mujo: Im pretty sure we're better off trying to get CS students interested and knowledgeable about OSS solutions to bring about OSS adoptions in the industry (09:23:23 PM) Nockian: you can continue to be a 'computer club' (and i see nothing wrong with that, by the way), or move forward to become a group that pushes Linux and OSS in the local community. (09:23:51 PM) bethlynn: 501c6 is a good way to be a "professional society" where you can partner with companies and do their marketing for them (09:23:53 PM) mujo: nockian, the local community is broader than the industry though (09:24:50 PM) bethlynn: or you could be a 501c7 be a social club (09:25:59 PM) bethlynn: a question for the canidates: should wplug strive to become a 501csomething? if so then what kind? If not why not? (09:26:18 PM) mujo: I cant say if we should (09:26:39 PM) mujo: Im not sure about the advantages/flaws of becoming one or not (09:27:00 PM) happylemur: bethlynn: do you think we have the level of organization and funding that requires? Of course full-time staff isn't necessary, but we would need to file the paperwork, without fail. This probably means retaining a lawyer or accountant. (09:27:03 PM) mujo: I think we're should be more than a social club though (09:27:27 PM) rcturley_: My first reaction would be to work toward the professional society model, but it depends upon the support/vision of the membership at large (09:29:45 PM) mujo: do you guys/gal think that there will be a big turnout this weekend? (09:30:00 PM) rcturley_: depending upon our approach, we would then also have to consider our funding model. Do we want to have only an annual membership fee or do we want to also collect a fee for each meeting which can be used for meeting related purposes (venue, publicity, etc) (09:30:01 PM) mujo: its hard to say what the membership wants if only half of it shows up no? (09:30:25 PM) bethlynn: happylemur: if it was a major goal, we could do a fund drive and make it happen. We'd need at least $2500 to pay for incorporation, the irs application fee, and the accountant/lawyer fee (09:31:14 PM) rcturley_: I don't remember ... do we have a quorum for the election? (09:31:26 PM) bethlynn: my question was to see if it was a priority (09:31:32 PM) mujo: bethlynn, what would be the advantage or having it? (09:31:39 PM) mujo: advantages? (09:32:07 PM) bethlynn: rcturley: yes we will need a quorum next saturday (09:32:45 PM) bethlynn: mujo: official exempt status. we currently have so little funds we are under the radar. (09:32:58 PM) mujo: ah ok (09:33:12 PM) wmoran: Sorry I disappeared ... something came up (09:33:19 PM) wmoran: Did I miss anything exciting (09:33:21 PM) wmoran: ? (09:33:34 PM) rcturley_: As far as organization, might it also be possible to have a possible incorporation/professional society model such that we would be a chapter underneath a larger organization, thus spreading the costs. (09:33:41 PM) bethlynn: if we consistently brought in 7K or more then we would have to address becoming an official nonprofit (09:35:01 PM) mujo: well I guess we need to recruit 320 members before that problem comes up (09:35:54 PM) happylemur: rcturley_: currently there are 22 members. mhs has two applications, but I don't know who they are from. If they are new members, that brings us to 24 which means we need 5 to be at the meeting for quorum. (09:36:03 PM) mujo: or have someone give us a big amount as a donation (09:38:00 PM) rcturley_: happylemur: Thanks. I hope that mhs has the applications that are dated last saturday or earlier, or they would not be eligible to vote. (09:38:50 PM) mujo: it would be nice to have more than quorum to get a good picture about where the membership wants the group to go (09:39:47 PM) rcturley_: Agreed. Getting a picture for a membership direction will probably be an effort that will require a series of meetings. (09:40:23 PM) happylemur: Yes, I would like to see more participation on that front as well. It is difficult to tell whether not participating is because people are happy or because they are indifferent. (09:41:33 PM) bethlynn: We've talked about doing surveys (09:42:05 PM) bethlynn: Do the candidates favor poling? why or why not? (09:43:04 PM) rcturley_: Yes, but surveys either are very general or else don't provide a mechanism for evolving toward a group consensus. (09:44:18 PM) happylemur: Yes, I think it could be useful. (09:44:28 PM) rcturley_: bethlynn: It depends upon the issue. To be of value, the question being asked must be well-defined. (09:45:11 PM) happylemur: Bob makes excellent points. (09:45:54 PM) wmoran: I don't know rcturley_ ... if you're just trying to get an idea of what people are looking for, even a sloppy survey can provide useful information (09:46:14 PM) wmoran: I mean, we're not trying to gather data of a masters thesus here ... it's just to get the lay of the land (09:47:48 PM) bethlynn: How would you communicate with the membership to make sure the organization is "on track" ? (09:48:06 PM) mujo: I think so too, but its a catch22 (09:48:20 PM) mujo: if you send a survey on the list and get back 5 filled ones (09:48:22 PM) rcturley_: Bill, in that case, a survey can be useful. However, we need to manage expectations also. We should not expect too much. (09:48:33 PM) mujo: you're not closer to knowing why people arent participating (09:50:07 PM) rcturley_: mujo: That is a more difficult question. It often requires a one-on-one conversation. (09:50:49 PM) mujo: yes... (09:51:02 PM) mujo: I mean I'd like to know if it has to do with the group (09:51:21 PM) mujo: if its a personal reason, its none of my business (09:51:36 PM) bethlynn: How would you communicate with the membership to make sure the organization is "on track" ? (09:51:49 PM) mujo: I hope the election meeting will be an occasion for that (09:52:00 PM) mujo: we could brainstorm about it (09:52:08 PM) mujo: and have a general discussion (09:52:25 PM) bethlynn: yes we have a open discussion after the talk on Sat (09:52:27 PM) mujo: maybe check back every other month (09:53:03 PM) bethlynn: It's close to 10pm so I have one last question as moderator but first I want to make sure there are no more questions from the floor. (09:53:05 PM) wmoran: We have to know what "on track" _is_, first (09:53:34 PM) mujo: yes I think that should be done on saturday (09:53:53 PM) bethlynn: on track == doing what is expected (09:54:08 PM) mujo: Im hoping we'll be able to have a fair picture of what is expected after that (09:54:53 PM) rcturley_: Bill, in order to answer that, we need to identify what we as a group want out of our efforts. i.e. have a mission/vision that the membership as a whole will endorse and support. (09:55:49 PM) rcturley_: we need to have a group ownership of the result. (09:57:03 PM) mujo: indeed (09:57:07 PM) eksortso: do we need to have only one mission? don't we want to foster many initiatives under one banner? (09:57:17 PM) bethlynn: last call for questions from the floor... (09:57:27 PM) eksortso: i just asked it (09:57:33 PM) mujo: I think we can have multiple aims (09:57:42 PM) mujo: but we need to prioritize eventually (09:57:47 PM) mujo: coz we cant do anything (09:58:02 PM) mujo: there are also missions that dont require anything more than meeting (09:58:09 PM) eksortso: you mean, we can't do everything? (09:58:14 PM) mujo: like a social gathering for instance (09:58:16 PM) rcturley_: Yes, but we need to limit our goals, or we won't be able to accomplish any of them. (09:58:48 PM) mujo: well, we need to lay out all we'd like to do, then choose to focus on some things at the expense of other things (09:59:50 PM) eksortso: but I'm not expecting the Board to do everything. how will you delegate, and what would you delegate? (10:00:29 PM) mujo: I think the organizing itself should take place in the general meeting and/or commitees, ad hoc or formal (10:01:15 PM) mujo: thats why I agree with rcturley_ that we need group ownership, if all the members decide the focus, theyll more likely participate (10:01:29 PM) bethlynn: It's 10pm so let's wind this this down (10:01:35 PM) mujo: ok. (10:01:56 PM) happylemur: eksortso: mujo said what I was going to say, but better. (10:01:57 PM) rcturley_: Agreed. Have a good evening. I'll see you on saturday. (10:02:17 PM) bethlynn: last question (10:02:24 PM) happylemur: Thanks everyone for showing up. (10:02:33 PM) wmoran: good night (10:02:33 PM) ***monkeybot yawns. "Good night wmoran." (10:02:33 PM) bethlynn: will all of the canidates be present this saturday (10:02:39 PM) bethlynn: ? (10:02:42 PM) mujo: I will (10:02:47 PM) bethlynn: Mr. Moran? (10:02:48 PM) monkeybot: i heard Mr. Moran was mia. (10:02:48 PM) mujo: have a good evening everyone (10:02:49 PM) wmoran: I'll be out (10:02:59 PM) wmoran: I'll have someone drop off my ballot (10:03:16 PM) happylemur: Yes, I will be there. Mike Semcheski may have to entertain his in-laws this weekend. (10:03:23 PM) mujo: see you on saturday... (10:03:34 PM) happylemur: See you then, Mathieu. (10:04:04 PM) wmoran left the room (quit: "Leaving"). (10:04:11 PM) eksortso: look for my face in the crowd, because I plan to be there (10:04:26 PM) mujo left the room (quit: "ircII EPIC5-0.3.5 -- Are we there yet?"). (10:04:29 PM) rcturley_ left the room (quit: "Ex-Chat"). (10:05:01 PM) bethlynn: last chance for a statement... (10:05:13 PM) happylemur: Vote Quimby! (10:05:20 PM) bethlynn: I'll call this a log in 5 minutes (10:05:40 PM) eksortso: good night, everyone. (10:06:00 PM) bethlynn: I'm always sleepy (10:06:04 PM) eksortso left the room ("Leaving"). (10:06:12 PM) happylemur: bethlynn: I assume you'll take care of uploading the log to the wiki? (10:06:20 PM) bethlynn: yup (10:06:29 PM) happylemur: Thanks. (10:06:32 PM) bethlynn: 4 minutes (10:07:27 PM) bethlynn: 3 minutes (10:08:14 PM) bethlynn: 2 minutes (10:08:15 PM) monkeybot: 2 minutes is idle by jo2y-home's standards. (10:08:24 PM) jo2y: yeah. (10:08:32 PM) bethlynn: how true (10:08:39 PM) ***bethlynn misses jo2y (10:08:49 PM) jo2y: try aiming better? (10:08:57 PM) bethlynn: heh (10:09:15 PM) bethlynn: 1 minute (10:10:03 PM) bethlynn: 30 seconds (10:10:51 PM) bethlynn: this IRC meeting of the Western PA Linux Users' meeting is adjourned (10:11:14 PM) happylemur: Good night, Mary Ellen. (10:12:34 PM) Logging stopped. Future messages in this conversation will not be logged.